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  1. #1
    Junior Member introuble's Avatar
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    DLC

    Hi again

    I have a large debt with DLC that I have not acknowledged since the middle of 2012. It would have been earlier but I lost my temper with them and wrote saying I have no money and can not afford to pay you anything so go away. I think I even said if they wanted to make me Bankrupt to go ahead and i wouldn't stand in their way.

    Over the years i have had a couple of letters, one offering me 25% discount another 50% , they might have well offered me 99% , I still wouldn't have been able to afford it.

    Anyway, it seems that DLC have been bought by someone else , I think it is Cabot AGAIN , and they have written to me offering me a 75% discount. They have also called me a couple of times but i haven't answered

    I was looking through old paperwork and I found a letter to a DCA collecting on behalf of a DCA where I told them I would only correspond in writing.
    I also found an old bank statement where the credit shows from Morgan Stanley
    Finally i found a copy of the agreement they sent me in 2012 , it shows Liverpool Victoria as the creditor and on careful inspection it is only one side and shows that default charges @£20 and refers to clause 3 overleaf.

    Needless to say , there is no over leaf and also they sent me statements which show the missed payment fees at £12

    I am hoping that what they sent does not comply with S77

    Any thoughts please

    I sent the CCA request in 2012 to DLC and they are still dealing with it

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    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    Hi again

    I have a large debt with DLC that I have not acknowledged since the middle of 2012. It would have been earlier but I lost my temper with them and wrote saying I have no money and can not afford to pay you anything so go away. I think I even said if they wanted to make me Bankrupt to go ahead and i wouldn't stand in their way.

    Over the years i have had a couple of letters, one offering me 25% discount another 50% , they might have well offered me 99% , I still wouldn't have been able to afford it.
    Often those "generous" discount letters are intended to get you to acknowledge the debt, for example, by making a counter-offer.

    You describe the debt as "large", how much is this debt (approximately)?
    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    Anyway, it seems that DLC have been bought by someone else , I think it is Cabot AGAIN , and they have written to me offering me a 75% discount.
    Yes, Hillesden Securities used to trade as DLC and they were acquired by Cabot a year ago. Cabot's expansion seems relentless.
    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    They have also called me a couple of times but i haven't answered
    You've done the right thing there, all communication should be kept in writing. If they keep ringing, you should make a log of all the calls and you may also consider writing a letter to them saying you shall only communicate with them in writing. There have been cases where defendants have won in court on the basis of harassment by creditors so they are more likely to agree to stop the calls these days than they were in the past. I also get the impression Cabot may have been reprimanded by the FCA, because their latest letters take on a much less threatening approach than they did in the past.
    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    I was looking through old paperwork and I found a letter to a DCA collecting on behalf of a DCA where I told them I would only correspond in writing.
    Cabot wouldn't have been provided with a copy of that letter, so it may be worth writing to them again if they keep hassling you over the phone.
    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    I also found an old bank statement where the credit shows from Morgan Stanley
    Finally i found a copy of the agreement they sent me in 2012 , it shows Liverpool Victoria as the creditor
    Morgan Stanley Loans were underwritten by LV. Was this originally a fixed term loan or a Morgan Stanley credit card?
    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    and on careful inspection it is only one side and shows that default charges @£20 and refers to clause 3 overleaf.

    Needless to say , there is no over leaf and also they sent me statements which show the missed payment fees at £12

    I am hoping that what they sent does not comply with S77

    Any thoughts please
    From what you say, there are two possibilities: either they have made a poor attempt at reconstructing your original agreement, in which case they may not have complied with s.77 of the CCA, or else the original agreement did not have all the terms included, which would be even better, as that would make it irredeemably unenforceable, provided the loan or card were taken out before April 2007. Have you any idea when you entered into this agreement?

    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    I sent the CCA request in 2012 to DLC and they are still dealing with it
    You say above they sent you a document purporting to be a copy of your agreement in 2012, so they did respond, but with a poor recon by the sounds of it.

    You have the option of either sending Cabot a letter saying this account has been disputed ever since DLC failed to comply with your request in 2012 or send a fresh CCA request to Cabot. Either way, Cabot would have to go back to the original creditor (MS/LV) to request the paperwork. They wouldn't have a clue what DLC sent you back in 2012. If you wrote saying the account has been in dispute ever since DLC failed to comply with your request, it would be best to leave it at that rather than getting into the fine details of what was actually wrong with what they sent, so there can be no attempt to put it right.

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  3. #3
    Junior Member introuble's Avatar
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    Hi
    To answer your questions
    The loan was for 15K but when I defaulted they added all the due interest so it went up to 18K. I was in a repayment plan for some years so the balance is now somewhere over 10K . I don't want to give too much away.
    It was a fixed term loan, the agreement does show PPI but I signed up for that because I heard it improved your chances of getting a loan however I cancelled it as soon as the loan was active so didn't pay any

    What they sent me was a one sided sheet of paper headed Liverpool Victoria but with my signature. They also sent me a copy of the direct debit mandate and some statements, it is from the statements that i saw the default fees of 12 although it says more on the agreement

    I am a little tied up at the moment but will at some point try to upload a copy of what they sent me

    Its odd but DLC are still writing to me thats what i meant when I said I sent a cca request and they were still dealing with it

    Later this week I will send them a letter about phone calls, good thing is they don't have my mobile and the calls are not that frequent

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    Junior Member introuble's Avatar
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    Well I am getting a little fed up now, it seems relentless. I have composed a letter using bits of templates from other sites I found, what do you think. I was going to email it from a rarely used email address and post a copy
    FORMAL COMPLAINT
    Thank you for your recent letters and telephone calls. Firstly may I remind you that when you purchase an account you also take on the duties and responsibilities that go with that account.
    As I informed the operative on the phone today, I will only communicate with you in writing, this has been the case since I wrote to MDB ( a trading style of Hillesden Securities ) in Sept 2013. The situation remains unchanged.
    In addition , the alleged account has been in dispute since Hillsden Securities failed to comply with my lawful Section 77 request in 2012. This was communicated to Lucas Credit Services in December 2015 who claimed to be acting on behalf of Hillesden Securities.
    I am perfectly aware of what a S77 request is for and what the consequences of your non compliance are

    I refer you in particular to sections 1 and IV

    As such I would like to refer you to the FCA Consumer Credit Sourcebook CONC and in particular CONC 13.1.6

    I will not enter into any further correspondence on this matter as my position is quite clear. Although I deny any liability regarding this alleged account as I have no income and debts to other companies may I suggest if you feel you have a case, you issue bankruptcy proceedings.
    In my letter I have included links to S77 CCA and also to the FCA handbook but the forum says I can not post links until I have more posts

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    Junior Member introuble's Avatar
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    CCA.pdf

    This is the CCA that I received back in 2012 . As far as I can remember that was it, as i said i have kept everything from that time . There were statements of account that showed charges of £12 for missed payments

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    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    Its odd but DLC are still writing to me thats what i meant when I said I sent a cca request and they were still dealing with it
    Are DLC still writing to you as DLC as opposed to Cabot?
    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    Later this week I will send them a letter about phone calls, good thing is they don't have my mobile and the calls are not that frequent
    In Roberts -v- Bank of Scotland the Court of Appeal upheld an award of damages against the Royal Bank of Scotland for harassment. The case was brought as a civil claim under section 1 (1) of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997, which provides:
    ďA person must not pursue a course of conduct (a) which amounts to harassment of another and (b) which he knows or ought to know amounts to harassment of anotherĒ.
    According to the Bankís log, 547 calls or attempted calls were made to the claimant from December 2007 to January 2009. In its defence, the Bank admitted making a large number of phone calls to their customer but denied that these amounted to harassment. The Bank asserted the calls were reasonable attempts to contact its customer and counterclaimed for £10,941.37 outstanding on the customerís accounts.

    You may want to quote the above case in your letter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    Hi
    To answer your questions
    The loan was for 15K but when I defaulted they added all the due interest so it went up to 18K. I was in a repayment plan for some years so the balance is now somewhere over 10K . I don't want to give too much away.
    It was a fixed term loan, the agreement does show PPI but I signed up for that because I heard it improved your chances of getting a loan however I cancelled it as soon as the loan was active so didn't pay any

    What they sent me was a one sided sheet of paper headed Liverpool Victoria but with my signature. They also sent me a copy of the direct debit mandate and some statements, it is from the statements that i saw the default fees of 12 although it says more on the agreement

    It sounds like they may not have done a proper recon of your agreement, a recon has to contain the terms that applied to your agreement at inception. Things like late payment charges are often a giveaway that the terms are not those that applied to your contract. There was a case last year on one of the forum where someone went to court and won because they managed to convince the judge that the recon they were presented with could not possibly have been of the terms that applied at the time he took out the loan, for similar reasons. There's nothing better than a credible witness who can put forward sound arguments.
    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    I am a little tied up at the moment but will at some point try to upload a copy of what they sent me
    That would be useful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    Well I am getting a little fed up now, it seems relentless. I have composed a letter using bits of templates from other sites I found, what do you think. I was going to email it from a rarely used email address and post a copy

    In my letter I have included links to S77 CCA and also to the FCA handbook
    If it was me, I would not suggest that they issue bankruptcy proceedings. Do bear in mind there is always the possibility that letters may end up in a court bundle so it's best to stick to the issues without giving too much away. As it stands at the moment, they have not complied with s.77 of the CCA and you could show that fact using the late payment charges, however, you don't want to be telling them that so they can rectify and send you another recon, if you see what I mean. You could quote the case above with regards to harassment.
    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    but the forum says I can not post links until I have more posts
    That's meant to be an anti spam measure but I thought the required post count would have been just 10, I shall take a look at the admin panel and fix that.

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  9. #9
    Junior Member introuble's Avatar
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    Hi Yes it is DLC that are calling and they are acting for ME11 who are part of Cabot.

    So I'll miss off the bankruptcy bit and put the bank of scotland quote in

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    CCA.pdf

    This is the CCA that I received back in 2012 . As far as I can remember that was it, as i said i have kept everything from that time . There were statements of account that showed charges of £12 for missed payments
    Is that all they have sent you? I posted above about a recon because I assume that's what they'd sent you before seeing the attached. On the cover letter they refer to a copy of your original agreement, not a reconstructed agreement. That being the case, the paperwork is incomplete since there is a mention of "clause 3(a) overleaf", yet there aren't any clauses on the next page. The fact they've mentioned £15 as default charges and you say you were charged £12 would seem to indicate these were not the terms of your agreement at inception, unless they were varied later on, in which case they should also have supplied you with the terms as varied. It's a bit of a botched job but you don't want to be telling them too much. As this was what you got four years ago and the account has been passed on, you could consider sending a new CCA request to the new owners to see what they come up with, they may not even be able to locate a copy of this documents after all these years and should shut them up for a while. The original creditor will have little interest in rushing to dig up the paperwork and that could buy you more time without giving anything away with regards to what's wrong with the documents they supplied four years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    Hi Yes it is DLC that are calling and they are acting for ME11 who are part of Cabot.

    So I'll miss off the bankruptcy bit and put the bank of scotland quote in

    Thanks
    MEII as in Marlin Europe II... No idea why they keep using so many names, other than to confuse people.

    Have sorted out the link posting issue, the required post count is now 10 as it should be so you should be able to post links.

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  12. #12
    Junior Member introuble's Avatar
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    Hi
    Yes that is almost all they sent although I have blanked out my signature and the date, my name and address at the top as well as the handwritten account number on the top. Oddly it has a printed reference number and then a hand written no . The hand written one is the same as the one quoted on the paperwork. They did include a copy of the direct debit mandate and then a statement showing credits and debits which is how I know that by 6 months after I took the loan out the default charges were just £12.
    There are 3 signatures in total, all mine and all very slightly different as you would expect, a dot in a slightly different place, a loop slightly different.

    Interestingly , and something I have just noticed, LV signed the agreement some days before I did. In addition the PPI premiums are included however on the date I signed it I had to chose one of three options, all that would have had different premiums . There was no PPI, PPI for life and critical illness only or the full monty of life critical illness accident unemployment . How would they know before I signed the agreement which i was taking . It also refers to the terms for life insurance being overleaf.

    Anyway , no sleep for me tonight now but tomorrow I will adapt the letter above removing the bankruptcy and the bit about being in default of a cca request and then send a new S77 request. I guess I can do that all in the same envelope.

    Looking back through my paperwork again, after they sent me the original response they harassed me so I made a formal complaint saying they handt fulfilled my S77 request. In response they sent me exactly the same stuff again. I am almost scared to send the new CCA in case they respond with the right stuff but I think it is the best

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    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    Hi
    Yes that is almost all they sent although I have blanked out my signature and the date, my name and address at the top as well as the handwritten account number on the top. Oddly it has a printed reference number and then a hand written no . The hand written one is the same as the one quoted on the paperwork. They did include a copy of the direct debit mandate and then a statement showing credits and debits which is how I know that by 6 months after I took the loan out the default charges were just £12.
    Morning

    Sounds like they did a copy and paste job using whatever they could find. It's not difficult to put bits together in Photoshop. Anyone else doing that with legal documents would probably be accused of fraud but Judge Waksman decided it was OK to reconstruct agreements. Although the idea was that recons should be honest and accurate, that left the door wide open to all sorts of trickery.
    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    There are 3 signatures in total, all mine and all very slightly different as you would expect, a dot in a slightly different place, a loop slightly different.
    3 signatures?
    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    Interestingly , and something I have just noticed, LV signed the agreement some days before I did.
    How did you apply for this loan? If you applied online or over the phone, they would have prepared the paperwork to send it to you for your signature. It's always useful to try and remember how you applied for credit. If it was online and in 2005 or later, there wouldn't be a need for a hard copy agreement to be signed by yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    In addition the PPI premiums are included however on the date I signed it I had to chose one of three options, all that would have had different premiums . There was no PPI, PPI for life and critical illness only or the full monty of life critical illness accident unemployment . How would they know before I signed the agreement which i was taking . It also refers to the terms for life insurance being overleaf.
    You said above that you cancelled the PPI premiums so you never paid any. There have been cases where the PPI boxes were pre-ticked, however, in this case you say you agreed to it to increase your chances of being approved. When there is PPI involved, the PPI terms should also be supplied at the time the agreement is signed along with any other terms such as life insurance. There is clearly at least a page missing from the documents they sent you. However, it's not clear whether they were actually missing at the time you took out the loan. There is a crucial difference here:
    • Terms missing at the time the loan was taken out: If it was taken out before April 2007, then it would make the account irredeemably unenforceable under s.127(3) of the CCA, repealed with effect from April 6th 2007 but not retroactively, so it would still apply to credit agreements made before that date; or
    • Terms missing on the copy you have been supplied: this means they've not complied with s.77 of the CCA and the account is unenforceable but they can remedy the fault at any time by supplying the correct documents.


    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    Anyway , no sleep for me tonight
    There is no reason to lose sleep over this, it's been kicking around for four years and not claim has been issued so far. From what you say above, you've not even received a legal threat, just the usual DCA activity. Given the sums involved, if this case went to court, it would be a fast-track case where costs can be recovered from the losing party. This means you could get legal assistance on a Conditional Fee Agreement (CFA) basis which is a form of "no win no fee". It may be possible to put you in contact with a solicitor but not unless matters progressed further.

    For this reason, it's important to ensure all correspondence is written in such a way it can be safely included in a court bundle, as per my previous post.
    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    now but tomorrow I will adapt the letter above removing the bankruptcy and the bit about being in default of a cca request and then send a new S77 request. I guess I can do that all in the same envelope.

    Looking back through my paperwork again, after they sent me the original response they harassed me so I made a formal complaint saying they handt fulfilled my S77 request. In response they sent me exactly the same stuff again. I am almost scared to send the new CCA in case they respond with the right stuff but I think it is the best
    It looks like that's all they've got so that's all they could send you. If four years ago they couldn't find anything else, their chances of finding it now are even slimmer. It is for that reason that I reckon a fresh s.77 request would be best. That way you can just send a generic template request letter as opposed to having to say they did not comply with your previous request. The problem with the "account in dispute" letters is that, as long as they've sent you something, they will argue they've complied and you have to keep arguing that they didn't, and that involves telling them why. That may lead to further attempts at reconstitution so its best not to tell them where they went wrong.

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    Junior Member introuble's Avatar
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    After some considerable deliberation I have decided not to do anything at the moment and what until something a little more significant comes through the post. If and when it does there is the option of the CCA request which I have typed up and all ready to go so it will be just a case of entering the date and cheque number.

    The longer I leave it , the less likely it will be that they actually have any details.

    In answer to what the forumadmin asked

    Yes on the form I uploaded there were two signatures, one for the application and one where it says about PPI. They also included the direct debit mandate which was signed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    After some considerable deliberation I have decided not to do anything at the moment and what until something a little more significant comes through the post. If and when it does there is the option of the CCA request which I have typed up and all ready to go so it will be just a case of entering the date and cheque number.

    The longer I leave it , the less likely it will be that they actually have any details.
    Yes, it's probably best to just let sleeping dogs lie and be ready in the event they should awaken.

    As your previous request was four years ago, it's likely the original creditor may not even be able to find the documents they sent you back then. If you've not paid since 2012, then the clock is also ticking nicely away.

    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    In answer to what the forumadmin asked

    Yes on the form I uploaded there were two signatures, one for the application and one where it says about PPI. They also included the direct debit mandate which was signed.
    Ah, that makes sense. However, it's not the signatures that matter but the terms that are there (or aren't there).

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    Junior Member introuble's Avatar
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    Today I received two annual statements of account that brings everything up to date as well as a request to complete an Income and Expenditure which of course I will just file. Looking back at what I have been sent I have found a few letters. Several of them insist that they have complied with the CCA request but the last one in 2013 says that while they supplied the front page they have not supplied the accompanying terms and conditions ( they haven't supplied the defaulted ones either) and that they had requested them from the original lender and would send them as soon as they received them. Well needless to say I haven't had them. On reflection I think the best thing is to just ignore them for now as i do not want to give them any chance to find the documents.
    If things hot up I can possibly delay them by making a complaint because according to the FCA they must not mislead me , even by omission as to the enforceability of the debt , well even sending me a 75% discount offer without saying the debt is unenforceable is misleading by omission.

    Thoughts please

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    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    Today I received two annual statements of account that brings everything up to date as well as a request to complete an Income and Expenditure which of course I will just file.
    They're trying to be too clever, aren't they? Sending the I&E together with the statements, to see if you bite.
    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    Looking back at what I have been sent I have found a few letters. Several of them insist that they have complied with the CCA request but the last one in 2013 says that while they supplied the front page they have not supplied the accompanying terms and conditions ( they haven't supplied the defaulted ones either) and that they had requested them from the original lender and would send them as soon as they received them. Well needless to say I haven't had them.
    As noted above, if they were unable to get hold of them, they're not likely to get hold of them now.
    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    On reflection I think the best thing is to just ignore them for now as i do not want to give them any chance to find the documents.
    Yes, hence the suggestion of sending a fresh CCA request if and when they start to get heavy. Sending dispute letters would require stating your grounds for dispute, and if you say that certain bits were missing, they'll try their best at reconstructing them.
    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    If things hot up I can possibly delay them by making a complaint because according to the FCA they must not mislead me , even by omission as to the enforceability of the debt , well even sending me a 75% discount offer without saying the debt is unenforceable is misleading by omission.

    Thoughts please
    The FCA do not deal with individual complaints, they will receive reports and possible act on some of them but they wouldn't inform you of any action taken against the offending company, nor would it have any effect on your case. You could complain to the FOS instead, although they will argue they don't get involved in matters regarding enforceability as that's left up to the courts, however, if it came to that, it could buy you some time. From experience, neither organisation is a great help, although the FCA have addressed some issues, that's likely to have been due to pressure to act. It's good to complain, and the more the merrier, just be aware that it won't make any difference to your case.

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  19. #19
    Junior Member introuble's Avatar
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    Hi again

    Since the last update

    I received a letter dated 10th June - took a while to arrive giving details of the account,
    Original creditor- Liverpool Victoria
    Account type - Loan
    Reference Number

    Today I received a letter that said my account had been on hold to give me some time but now was no longer. If I did not reply within 14 days of the date on the letter they would recommence communication. I think the on hold came about after I answered a phone call and played dumb , no idea what you are talking about etc

    All seems kinda desperate to me so I think I will just keep quite and if things hot up send a new CCA request , as had been said before, I don't really want to give them any chance to put it right.

    Not sure if I said but i still have the original bank statement that received the loan into it as well as two separate default notices, I suspect that I may have fixed the forst one but again that could be checked with the bank statements if need be

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    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    Hi again

    Since the last update

    I received a letter dated 10th June - took a while to arrive giving details of the account,
    Original creditor- Liverpool Victoria
    Account type - Loan
    Reference Number

    Today I received a letter that said my account had been on hold to give me some time but now was no longer. If I did not reply within 14 days of the date on the letter they would recommence communication.


    Sounds like a fairly generic template letter. If all they're going to do is to recommence communication, then let's see what they communicate when they do.
    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    I think the on hold came about after I answered a phone call and played dumb , no idea what you are talking about etc
    It's always best not to speak to them on the phone and just say you will only communicate in writing if it comes to that. As they have to start with security questions, refusing to answer them should put a swift end to the conversation.
    Quote Originally Posted by introuble View Post
    All seems kinda desperate to me so I think I will just keep quite and if things hot up send a new CCA request , as had been said before, I don't really want to give them any chance to put it right.

    Not sure if I said but i still have the original bank statement that received the loan into it as well as two separate default notices, I suspect that I may have fixed the forst one but again that could be checked with the bank statements if need be
    Were the two DNs issued by the same company (LV)? Sometimes debt purchasers like to be funny and re-issue DNs. I've seen it a few times, even when they clearly can't, what would they do if you remedied the breach in time?

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